(no subject)

[asheris]

I wrote this once tonight, then had one of those fun full-system crashes that happens slowly... one program, then the next, but never being allowed to save what you're working on.

Anyway, as much as I can reconstruct it:



In the past year, there's something I've been seeing more and more often. In the news, in books, in conversation, even at business meetings.

People claiming that they're being discriminated against or otherwise badly treated for being Christians. Here in the US.

I see quotes in reviews of books (business oriented books, too!) like "He is not afraid to reveal his relationship with his Lord..." At the library this evening, I ran across some new fiction about a girl at a New England college whose professors, "while open-minded about alternative religions", deride her for being Christian. (The main premise being that God and Satan are going to fight over her, and she's now at a disadvantage because she's being looked down on my those around her for being "faithful".)

At business meetings in recent months, I've been seeing people get up and say how "proud" they are to "be able to stand up and openly introduce myself as a Christian Businessman." As through they can't pretty much anywhere? (Somehow, I can't see standing up and announcing how proud I am to be a Pagan Businesswoman; I just don't suspect that would go over well in mostly Christian Minnesota. Then again, I can't see what the heck being a Christian or a Pagan has to do with most businesses!)


All around me, I see Christians (not all, but quite a few) pushing to have the ten commandments posted in courts and public schools. Pushing to have prayer in public schools- they're not talking about any/all prayers, just their prayers. They're openly and vocally supported in this by the president and the attorney general, both of whom mention their (Christian) religion/faith at every possible opportunity. Ashcroft, to the point of instituting daily prayer meetings for his staff and starting other meetings with prayers!

The only time I've heard Christians even being asked to so much as tone it down, is when they're in a situation where it's inappropriate to be bringing in any faith or religion.

When people disagree (even when it's other Christians), in their minds, that's apparently discrimination.


Do they think that if they keep claiming they're being discriminated against for being Christian, that people will eventually start believing them? A lot of people already seem to be buying it!


Honestly, when was the last time you heard about a Christian worship service being disrupted by Pagans, Muslims, Buddhists, or whoever chanting and singing, and the police either ignored the calls, showed up late, or told the Christians to quit disrupting the neighborhood? (Now swap them around- and suddenly, it sounds like things you've heard in the news in the recent past.)


Is this just me? (A good friend of mine- agnostic- claims I'm just being overly sensitive.) Or are other people seeing it, too?

Comments

[hakuin.livejournal.com]

i think you're right on.

observing the u.s. from abroad, you get the distinct impression that one central american charecteristic is the need for self-validation. or, if i put it less polite, rampant self-righteousness.

claiming being discriminated against / a victim is such great excuse for shunning any criticism. you can even see that in cases where there's a solid case to be made (like racial discrimination).

[asheris.livejournal.com]

rampant self-righteousness about sums it up, in many cases.

Having been abroad and treated like crap by Americans who assumed I was a local, I have a great sympathy for people who have to deal with American tourists.

How does the rest of the world put up with us? (Besides as little as possible!)

[hakuin.livejournal.com]

thinking about what i've written, my statement is probably a bit unfair. perhaps it's more to do with the fact that the most UNDISCRIMINATED part of the human poulation (white male citizens of the western hemisphere) realize that it's cooler to claim to be discriminted against, because then by definition you can't be part of the powers that be who run the show and are in fact responsible for the EXISTING discrimination (because there is a part inside even a dumbest right-wing pricksS brain that knows that things aren't as ok as he'd like to think) .

i think there are a lot of people who would secrectly love to be, say, jewish or black. since you can't be that by choice, you invent your own system in which you're part of a discriminated minority and you're involved in a righteous struggle.

you have similar things going on in europe, just not as loud-mouthed and blatant as in the u.s..

...

it depends on the kind of tourists. the drunk morons which pass by my window at night (i practically live on the tourist racetrack here) is an additional nugget to bolster any anti-american notion you might have. on the other hand, i've met american backpackers here and in other parts of europe and in japan who were among the coolest, nicest and most open-minded people i've ever met.

[tygermoonfoxx.livejournal.com]

No, I don't think it is just you but I also think that some sects at least have reason to feel persecuted. My Roman Catholic friends complain constantly of being persecuted by other sects of Christianity and I have witnessed this happening. The Mormons seem to be the other popular target but I've also seen the Methodists under fire recently as well. Doing the attacking are the Baptists, evangelists, and Luthrans (mostly right wing Christian groups with a very narrow and literal interpretation of scripture). I've also noticed a growing hostility within the pagan groups, an actual push to "do unto them as they have done unto us". Some of those groups scare me because they've gone from grumbling about the wrongs of Christianity in general to actual suggestions of religious suppression and harm to nonpagans.

On the other side, I think as other religions come into the mainstream the Christians are feeling the pressure, rather like suddenly realizing you're the only person left on a very dark and run down street. They're trying to reassert their dominance in the changing times. I don't think they can do that; there are too many alternatives available.

[asheris.livejournal.com]

I've noticed that Catholics and Mormons tend to be the butt of jokes fairly often, but I haven't seen anything that really fits into the category of "discrimination" in daily life.

Most of the people claiming they've been discriminated against for being Christian (at least the ones I know of in person) are from seemingly mainstream Protestant denominations.

Yes, I've been seeing more of that kind of reactionary behaviour in various pagan circles. Makes me very glad I'm a solitary!



I think a better analogy than being alone on a street would be something like a city council. For decades, it was all white male Christians. Then a woman gets elected, and a black man. At first they treat them a bit like mascots, the whole "look how diverse we are" thing, while at the same time doing what they can to deny them access and power. Each election, the number of white Christian men gets smaller, while more women and people of non-white descent are elected. Suddenly the WC men realize that they're no longer in the majority- and panic. Start striking out, badmouthing, claiming that they're in the minority because they're white, or male, or Christian - not because their ideas and opinions are no longer those of the people they're supposed to represent.

Re:

[tygermoonfoxx.livejournal.com]

No, I've seen some real discriminatory behavior. Several of the RC churches down here have been broken into and vandalized --- nothing taken, just gross vandalism. The Mormons down here hide their tabernacle (I knew there was one but the only thing I could get out of my Moromon friend was the location was now secret because it had been burnt down in a malicious act).

Down here, anyone who isn't Baptist is at real risk for being a second class citizen. The cops don't come when you call. People push you around, do things to your vehicles. And these are things I've seen from non-pagan Christian friends.

Don't even get me started on some of the shit that the so-called pagans have pulled (ranging from going around re-arranging letters on church boards to some really serious shit that could have gotten someone killed).

It's there, unfortunately.

[asheris.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'm going to get in trouble for this one, but... the Baptists I've known do tend to be a bit... er, VOCAL about their faith and aren't shy about telling others they aren't on the right path.

Up here, it's Jewish synagogues that get vandalized; I think some of the "selection" of victims varies by region.


What has me wondering- if Christians are being treated like crap by other Christians, why do they act like it's non-Christians that are the problem, and try to force their blend of Christianity down everyone's throats?

Re:

[tygermoonfoxx.livejournal.com]

I'd guess they have the same blind spots and preferences that the rest of us do. Until the last year or so, I never truly realized how malicious the pagan community is with one another. I think it's something that is endemic any time you have a bunch of folk gathering for religious or political reasons. Animalistic behavior, they turn on one another.

[rothko.livejournal.com]

i don't see it so much out here, but a) i try to keep my head in the sand at all times, and b) after all, i do live in the People's Republic of Cambridge. (it's a mighty fine place to be, all things considered.)

but yeah, i definitely know what you mean. i heard that all the time in college. it's fairly common for evangelical types to define themselves as a "christian businesswoman" or a "christian web designer" or a "christian gas station attendant" or what have you. your faith permeating your entire life and all that.

unfortunately, it tends to end up leaking out onto everybody else's lives as well. messy.

[asheris.livejournal.com]

unfortunately, it tends to end up leaking out onto everybody else's lives as well. messy.

*nods*

I almost want to stop and ask them how they'd feel if a majority of thepeople around them suddenly started appending their faith onto the front of every title- Jewish Librarian, Muslim Lawyer, Pagan CPA, etc. Somehow, I think they'd start complaining that other people were trying to force-feed them religion.

I used to think MN was fairly cosmopolitan, when it came to dealing with other faiths; we've do have the most culturally mixed metro area between New York and LA. Or maybe that's what's setting off this "backlash" (for lack of a better term). Christians are still the majority, but they see the margin narrowing.